So then Brexit, or stay in the EU?

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So then Brexit, or stay in the EU?

Post by John Markie » Tuesday 07th 2016f June 2016 11:14:21 PM

I can imagine Dixie gnashing his teeth at all the financial experts saying Brexit will be bad for the economy (Bank of England, OECD, Unilever, etc., all saying it will result in job losses and a probable recession).

So who is for staying in the EU and who is for leaving?
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Re: So then Brexit, or stay in the EU?

Post by Quidsin » Tuesday 07th 2016f June 2016 11:30:06 PM

Vote Remain is backed by global institutions such as the IMF, Bank of England, OECD. Super powers back Remain: USA, China, Germany, France. Vote Leave is run by political loons Farage, Boris, IDS, Gove. Only England can fk this up badly and Vote Leave :?
I Vote Remain.
On the bright side Scottish Independence is a certainty if we are pulled out of EU against our will. Every cloud 8)
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Re: So then Brexit, or stay in the EU?

Post by dixie chicken » Wednesday 08th 2016f June 2016 01:49:22 AM

It's a no brainer for me.
Brexit.
All the big financial institutions were wrong about ERM, the Euro and just about everything else.
I'm British and I want my country back.
Really the same arguments as put forward by the Nats.
Only difference is, I'm British.

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Re: So then Brexit, or stay in the EU?

Post by Bairnardo » Wednesday 08th 2016f June 2016 04:57:21 AM

I'm basically a working class gadge. Personally I believe in the trade union movement but plenty don't.

However, no working class folk should be under any illusions that Brexit and the removal of EU employment regulations with a Tory government in charge would be a f****** disaster for them...

Wave goodbye to maternity/paternity/working time directive/paid holidays/sick pay..... you name it. It will all go on the table to be scavenged.

Still you just never know do you.... Maybe our country would flourish, but when the peddlers of Brexit are utter trolls like Farage who is running around with lowest common denominator soundbites about immigrants groping our wives and daughters, or Bojo who knows/cares nothing of Britain outside of London, I see it as unbackable. Bottom line is, Brexit is being peddled by A) Elitist Tory types at one end of the scale or B) Closet racist "Immigrants stole our jobs" types. No-one has made a case for change that stands up. Vote Leave deals in outlandish financial claims or outright scaremongering.

In for me.
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Re: So then Brexit, or stay in the EU?

Post by Bula Bairn » Wednesday 08th 2016f June 2016 05:34:04 PM

Britain is too wee, poor and stupid to be independent. Voting remain. 8)

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Re: So then Brexit, or stay in the EU?

Post by PG.Colossus » Wednesday 08th 2016f June 2016 06:06:56 PM

Bula Bairn wrote:Britain is too wee, poor and stupid to be independent. Voting remain. 8)
And way too soft to go it alone. Extending the deadline to register to vote when everyone's had more than 150 days to do so? If these numpties can't sort themselves to register in time then they don't deserve to have a say in our country's future. Absolutely pathetic behaviour from all involved.

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Re: So then Brexit, or stay in the EU?

Post by Bairn_O_Falkirk » Wednesday 08th 2016f June 2016 09:19:49 PM

Anyone who votes leave is a moron. Not necessarily a racist but almost certainly one of them as well
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Re: So then Brexit, or stay in the EU?

Post by John Markie » Wednesday 08th 2016f June 2016 10:37:39 PM

Bairn_O_Falkirk wrote:Anyone who votes leave is a moron. Not necessarily a racist but almost certainly one of them as well
Unfortunately that sums up your average "Little Englander" of whom there are very, very many.
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Re: So then Brexit, or stay in the EU?

Post by dixie chicken » Thursday 09th 2016f June 2016 01:15:39 AM

Why would you want to be part of a Europe which is ruled by Germany which ruins the economies of countries which don't toe the line?
The euro is low because of the basket case economies which suits Germany just great but puts all the rest into unemployment and poverty.
Cameron is right. Germany has won WW111 without a bullet being fired.
I know who the morons are. No doubt about that!!!
I ask my US friends here. How would you like to have a large amount of your laws made in Mexico City or Ottawa and they immediately agree with Brexit.

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Re: So then Brexit, or stay in the EU?

Post by Rosco » Thursday 09th 2016f June 2016 04:56:49 PM

started off without even considering out as an option. My sureness has ebbed away, i'm now a total undecided.

I don't understand what the EU does for working people. I genuinely want to know what it does for normal people, I'd rather vote in but i'm not sure. People keep saying they have brought in minimum workers' rights. Like what? Have you seen what they're trying to do in France? In Spain people have been waiting years for a salary they're due from their own government.

The EU doesn't like governments elected by nations with a different world view from the IMF/Germany. It seems to straightjacket any novel progressive thinking that doesn't just capitulate to economic technocrats. It is of the world view that where we are is as good as it gets; I just don't believe that. I'm not sure what I am but I believe in radical change. I've seen what London financiers and the like get paid. There is money, it's just not spread properly. It's sickening and they seem to be just part of the same establishment club. Any progressive ideal is to be threatened. See Greece and the fear of Podemos in Spain.

I love being European, I want Scotland to play its part in Europe like the others but do we actually help bring positive change by staying in or leaving? I certainly believe in a European Union of some sort...I just don't know if this one needs a radical break to refix itself.

You're saying we won't be protected by the EU in terms of Tores. If the Tories are so bad, they can be put out of office by the electorate. How do I stop the EU having deals which affect the Scottish NHS? What's their accountability there?

I genuinely don't want to be on the racist side. Immigration, isn't a big issue for me. I want to believe in the EU but i'm not sure anymore. Remain is Project Fear part two. I don't want to be in either camp.

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Re: So then Brexit, or stay in the EU?

Post by dixie chicken » Thursday 09th 2016f June 2016 05:31:07 PM

Rosco wrote:started off without even considering out as an option. My sureness has ebbed away, i'm now a total undecided.

I don't understand what the EU does for working people. I genuinely want to know what it does for normal people, I'd rather vote in but i'm not sure. People keep saying they have brought in minimum workers' rights. Like what? Have you seen what they're trying to do in France? In Spain people have been waiting years for a salary they're due from their own government.

The EU doesn't like governments elected by nations with a different world view from the IMF/Germany. It seems to straightjacket any novel progressive thinking that doesn't just capitulate to economic technocrats. It is of the world view that where we are is as good as it gets; I just don't believe that. I'm not sure what I am but I believe in radical change. I've seen what London financiers and the like get paid. There is money, it's just not spread properly. It's sickening and they seem to be just part of the same establishment club. Any progressive ideal is to be threatened. See Greece and the fear of Podemos in Spain.

I love being European, I want Scotland to play its part in Europe like the others but do we actually help bring positive change by staying in or leaving? I certainly believe in a European Union of some sort...I just don't know if this one needs a radical break to refix itself.

You're saying we won't be protected by the EU in terms of Tores. If the Tories are so bad, they can be put out of office by the electorate. How do I stop the EU having deals which affect the Scottish NHS? What's their accountability there?

I genuinely don't want to be on the racist side. Immigration, isn't a big issue for me. I want to believe in the EU but i'm not sure anymore. Remain is Project Fear part two. I don't want to be in either camp.
Really good post. You've covered most of the points and dilemmas.
Don't listen to all the politicians and experts but come to your own decision as you see it.

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Re: So then Brexit, or stay in the EU?

Post by Bula Bairn » Thursday 09th 2016f June 2016 07:42:39 PM

The campaigns and coverage have been dreadful so far - will only get interesting after the result.

Not really fussed about the EU - just hoping a big remain vote in Scotland triggers another step to Scottish independence.

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Re: So then Brexit, or stay in the EU?

Post by John Markie » Thursday 09th 2016f June 2016 08:37:38 PM

Bula Bairn wrote:The campaigns and coverage have been dreadful so far - will only get interesting after the result.

Not really fussed about the EU - just hoping a big remain vote in Scotland triggers another step to Scottish independence.
Kinda my attitude too, although I think remaining in is the better option for us all.

Globalisation has come and we are now a small cog in a much bigger wheel. But I understand the point about not being able to elect the EU commissioners, but they don't pass the laws, even though they draw them up. The MEP's debate and amend (almost all of) the commissioners draft legislation, so the European Parliament does play its part in the legislative process. You think that the British governments MP's write their own stuff (hahahahahahaha)? No - that is done by the Civil Service (the same type of faceless un-elected bureaucrats), then goes through the same process before it becomes law.

I hate the tories with a passion, and they are already hell bent on destroying whats left of the NHS and any other "nationalised industry". I can't even think of one thats left to be fair, but thats down to the great Margaret Thatcher and her storm-trooper pals, especially Tebbit, who destroyed most of it (or sold it off to their mates) in the 80's. Remember this woman sold the north sea oil assets to the Seven Sisters (major oil companies), so Cameron and/or Boris won't hesitate to line their own nest and sell the NHS to the Americans. They've been plotting it for years with the TTIP, which the EU are trying to dilute - hence the delays in getting a trade deal done.

Vote Brexit, kiss the NHS goodbye, vote remain and it might just survive but not as you know it now. I would rather trust a nameless European bureaucrat than Boris Johnson or Michael Gove with the NHS.

Its a tough decision, frying pan, or fire. I hope Scotland votes remain, but England votes Brexit. For me thats enough to trigger a Scottish UDI (but I suspect I am alone in that one) or at least another referendum on independence. For me that'd be win/win.
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Re: So then Brexit, or stay in the EU?

Post by Quidsin » Thursday 09th 2016f June 2016 09:22:20 PM

John Markie wrote:
Bula Bairn wrote:The campaigns and coverage have been dreadful so far - will only get interesting after the result.

Not really fussed about the EU - just hoping a big remain vote in Scotland triggers another step to Scottish independence.
Kinda my attitude too, although I think remaining in is the better option for us all.

Globalisation has come and we are now a small cog in a much bigger wheel. But I understand the point about not being able to elect the EU commissioners, but they don't pass the laws, even though they draw them up. The MEP's debate and amend (almost all of) the commissioners draft legislation, so the European Parliament does play its part in the legislative process. You think that the British governments MP's write their own stuff (hahahahahahaha)? No - that is done by the Civil Service (the same type of faceless un-elected bureaucrats), then goes through the same process before it becomes law.

I hate the tories with a passion, and they are already hell bent on destroying whats left of the NHS and any other "nationalised industry". I can't even think of one thats left to be fair, but thats down to the great Margaret Thatcher and her storm-trooper pals, especially Tebbit, who destroyed most of it (or sold it off to their mates) in the 80's. Remember this woman sold the north sea oil assets to the Seven Sisters (major oil companies), so Cameron and/or Boris won't hesitate to line their own nest and sell the NHS to the Americans. They've been plotting it for years with the TTIP, which the EU are trying to dilute - hence the delays in getting a trade deal done.

Vote Brexit, kiss the NHS goodbye, vote remain and it might just survive but not as you know it now. I would rather trust a nameless European bureaucrat than Boris Johnson or Michael Gove with the NHS.

Its a tough decision, frying pan, or fire. I hope Scotland votes remain, but England votes Brexit. For me thats enough to trigger a Scottish UDI (but I suspect I am alone in that one) or at least another referendum on independence. For me that'd be win/win.
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Re: So then Brexit, or stay in the EU?

Post by Bairn_O_Falkirk » Thursday 09th 2016f June 2016 09:28:31 PM

Please don't vote leave if you are banking on Scottish independence.

Vote remain, let other people gamble with our futures.
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Re: So then Brexit, or stay in the EU?

Post by dixie chicken » Thursday 09th 2016f June 2016 09:44:34 PM

John Markie wrote:
Bula Bairn wrote:The campaigns and coverage have been dreadful so far - will only get interesting after the result.

Not really fussed about the EU - just hoping a big remain vote in Scotland triggers another step to Scottish independence.
Kinda my attitude too, although I think remaining in is the better option for us all.

Globalisation has come and we are now a small cog in a much bigger wheel. But I understand the point about not being able to elect the EU commissioners, but they don't pass the laws, even though they draw them up. The MEP's debate and amend (almost all of) the commissioners draft legislation, so the European Parliament does play its part in the legislative process. You think that the British governments MP's write their own stuff (hahahahahahaha)? No - that is done by the Civil Service (the same type of faceless un-elected bureaucrats), then goes through the same process before it becomes law.

I hate the tories with a passion, and they are already hell bent on destroying whats left of the NHS and any other "nationalised industry". I can't even think of one thats left to be fair, but thats down to the great Margaret Thatcher and her storm-trooper pals, especially Tebbit, who destroyed most of it (or sold it off to their mates) in the 80's. Remember this woman sold the north sea oil assets to the Seven Sisters (major oil companies), so Cameron and/or Boris won't hesitate to line their own nest and sell the NHS to the Americans. They've been plotting it for years with the TTIP, which the EU are trying to dilute - hence the delays in getting a trade deal done.

Vote Brexit, kiss the NHS goodbye, vote remain and it might just survive but not as you know it now. I would rather trust a nameless European bureaucrat than Boris Johnson or Michael Gove with the NHS.

Its a tough decision, frying pan, or fire. I hope Scotland votes remain, but England votes Brexit. For me thats enough to trigger a Scottish UDI (but I suspect I am alone in that one) or at least another referendum on independence. For me that'd be win/win.
Read all your stuff about NHS privatisation but I just can't see it.
When did you last pay to see a GP?
When did you pay for any hospital treatment?
As far as I am aware, the NHS is free at the point of need.
GPs are private contractors along with dentists but they always have been.
Pharma companies are private but they always have been.
We pay some fees for dentistry, eye treatment and some other peripherals, but we always have.
Maybe you might tell me what the tories have done to make us pay for health?
Personally, I would like to see a bit more of 'paying ' for treatment but there are no plans for this to happen.
I can't accept your 'facts'.

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Re: So then Brexit, or stay in the EU?

Post by Rosco » Thursday 09th 2016f June 2016 09:56:30 PM

John Markie wrote:
Bula Bairn wrote:The campaigns and coverage have been dreadful so far - will only get interesting after the result.

Not really fussed about the EU - just hoping a big remain vote in Scotland triggers another step to Scottish independence.
The MEP's debate and amend (almost all of) the commissioners draft legislation, so the European Parliament does play its part in the legislative process. You think that the British governments MP's write their own stuff (hahahahahahaha)? No - that is done by the Civil Service (the same type of faceless un-elected bureaucrats), then goes through the same process before it .

One process entirely involves MPs accountable to the UK electorate in a process of majority vote. Made up of parties we're familiar with and are directly accountable to us for their actions. Regardless of the origin of the theories behind the votes presented.

The other process is made up of MEPs largely from a different polity. It cannot be voted out by the UK electorate. It's nothing like the same.

I suppose it comes down to what should be at European level for trade regulations etc and what shouldn't. I'd rather that debate than the nonsense we've had so far.

I can't believe it. I think I might actually vote out. If it wasn't for UKIP Boris and the Front National and how it could give them a second wind I think I'd be a cert.

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Re: So then Brexit, or stay in the EU?

Post by John Markie » Thursday 09th 2016f June 2016 10:16:00 PM

Rosco wrote:
John Markie wrote:
Bula Bairn wrote:The campaigns and coverage have been dreadful so far - will only get interesting after the result.

Not really fussed about the EU - just hoping a big remain vote in Scotland triggers another step to Scottish independence.
The MEP's debate and amend (almost all of) the commissioners draft legislation, so the European Parliament does play its part in the legislative process. You think that the British governments MP's write their own stuff (hahahahahahaha)? No - that is done by the Civil Service (the same type of faceless un-elected bureaucrats), then goes through the same process before it .

One process entirely involves MPs accountable to the UK electorate in a process of majority vote. Made up of parties we're familiar with and are directly accountable to us for their actions. Regardless of the origin of the theories behind the votes presented.

The other process is made up of MEPs largely from a different polity. It cannot be voted out by the UK electorate. It's nothing like the same.

I suppose it comes down to what should be at European level for trade regulations etc and what shouldn't. I'd rather that debate than the nonsense we've had so far.

I can't believe it. I think I might actually vote out. If it wasn't for UKIP Boris and the Front National and how it could give them a second wind I think I'd be a cert.
Largely depends on what type of scum to believe in a way. Cameron and Blair both for Remain (two utter tw@ts) versus Johnson and Farage (pronounced as in Garage) for Leave (another two utter tw@ts). I doubt I'd place any trust in any of them.
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Re: So then Brexit, or stay in the EU?

Post by John Markie » Thursday 09th 2016f June 2016 10:19:40 PM

dixie chicken wrote:
John Markie wrote:
Bula Bairn wrote:The campaigns and coverage have been dreadful so far - will only get interesting after the result.

Not really fussed about the EU - just hoping a big remain vote in Scotland triggers another step to Scottish independence.
Kinda my attitude too, although I think remaining in is the better option for us all.

Globalisation has come and we are now a small cog in a much bigger wheel. But I understand the point about not being able to elect the EU commissioners, but they don't pass the laws, even though they draw them up. The MEP's debate and amend (almost all of) the commissioners draft legislation, so the European Parliament does play its part in the legislative process. You think that the British governments MP's write their own stuff (hahahahahahaha)? No - that is done by the Civil Service (the same type of faceless un-elected bureaucrats), then goes through the same process before it becomes law.

I hate the tories with a passion, and they are already hell bent on destroying whats left of the NHS and any other "nationalised industry". I can't even think of one thats left to be fair, but thats down to the great Margaret Thatcher and her storm-trooper pals, especially Tebbit, who destroyed most of it (or sold it off to their mates) in the 80's. Remember this woman sold the north sea oil assets to the Seven Sisters (major oil companies), so Cameron and/or Boris won't hesitate to line their own nest and sell the NHS to the Americans. They've been plotting it for years with the TTIP, which the EU are trying to dilute - hence the delays in getting a trade deal done.

Vote Brexit, kiss the NHS goodbye, vote remain and it might just survive but not as you know it now. I would rather trust a nameless European bureaucrat than Boris Johnson or Michael Gove with the NHS.

Its a tough decision, frying pan, or fire. I hope Scotland votes remain, but England votes Brexit. For me thats enough to trigger a Scottish UDI (but I suspect I am alone in that one) or at least another referendum on independence. For me that'd be win/win.
Read all your stuff about NHS privatisation but I just can't see it.
When did you last pay to see a GP?
When did you pay for any hospital treatment?
As far as I am aware, the NHS is free at the point of need.
GPs are private contractors along with dentists but they always have been.
Pharma companies are private but they always have been.
We pay some fees for dentistry, eye treatment and some other peripherals, but we always have.
Maybe you might tell me what the tories have done to make us pay for health?
Personally, I would like to see a bit more of 'paying ' for treatment but there are no plans for this to happen.
I can't accept your 'facts'.
Sorry Dixie - I am not talking facts, just predictions. The Tories have been sliding this (see below) in under the radar of the referendum, expect to see more on this post 23rd June.
https://www.opendemocracy.net/ournhs/ri ... er-charges
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Re: So then Brexit, or stay in the EU?

Post by PG.Colossus » Thursday 09th 2016f June 2016 10:31:55 PM

Rosco wrote:started off without even considering out as an option. My sureness has ebbed away, i'm now a total undecided.

I don't understand what the EU does for working people. I genuinely want to know what it does for normal people, I'd rather vote in but i'm not sure. People keep saying they have brought in minimum workers' rights. Like what? Have you seen what they're trying to do in France? In Spain people have been waiting years for a salary they're due from their own government.

The EU doesn't like governments elected by nations with a different world view from the IMF/Germany. It seems to straightjacket any novel progressive thinking that doesn't just capitulate to economic technocrats. It is of the world view that where we are is as good as it gets; I just don't believe that. I'm not sure what I am but I believe in radical change. I've seen what London financiers and the like get paid. There is money, it's just not spread properly. It's sickening and they seem to be just part of the same establishment club. Any progressive ideal is to be threatened. See Greece and the fear of Podemos in Spain.

I love being European, I want Scotland to play its part in Europe like the others but do we actually help bring positive change by staying in or leaving? I certainly believe in a European Union of some sort...I just don't know if this one needs a radical break to refix itself.

You're saying we won't be protected by the EU in terms of Tores. If the Tories are so bad, they can be put out of office by the electorate. How do I stop the EU having deals which affect the Scottish NHS? What's their accountability there?

I genuinely don't want to be on the racist side. Immigration, isn't a big issue for me. I want to believe in the EU but i'm not sure anymore. Remain is Project Fear part two. I don't want to be in either camp.
I don't see looking to stem and restrict immigration as a racism issue. For me it's practicality. As much as we have a load of empty space in the UK, at the current rate of immigration areas that are actually currently habitable will be saturated in 20-30 years time. Surely no-one, other than an owner of a company that builds tower blocks, wants to see this happen?

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