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The Real Super Sam
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Re: wreckless eric....

Post by The Real Super Sam » Thursday 01st 2012f March 2012 03:05:44 PM

Hisslor wrote:
geeo41 wrote:Haha, thanks hisslor that was hilarious!!!
I reckon its you thats pissed your knickers son, this has been a proper debate on the subject with views expressed on all sides, seems you cant handle that.
Ahh the founding member of the Falkirk intelligentsia strikes again. Yet again you post words without actually saying anything, drivel, drivel, drivel. I'll await you posting your further earth shattering reasons why the Scottish Labour party should campaign for independance................. :)

Ranaldo Bairn, f**k me sir, boom thats some really explosive sarcasm and deductive reasoning in your post you should do stand-up. Joyce is f****d he'll either do the decent thing and resign or cling on till the next election, regardless of what happens, when the new Labour candidate will be elected............................especially if the SNP put Dave Alexander up again :lol:
The man who delivered the stadium, I'd vote for him. :clap:

Wasn't it John McNally that stood last time for the SNP, I'n not aware of David Alexander having stood for parliament before.

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Re: wreckless eric....

Post by Sir Jones » Thursday 01st 2012f March 2012 03:35:21 PM

Rosco wrote:I wouldn't say i'm SNP but am pro independence.
My stance too, though wasn't always the case until recently.

Personally, I don't buy into the typical arguments made for and against independence though I'll read both with some interest. Financial projections and other statistics can be bent to back any argument but for me, I'd like to think the people of this country would do a reasonable job of running things. But then who really knows?

Historically speaking, collectively the people of Scotland have punched well above their weight over the years. There is an opportunuty to at least make headways to returning to that sort of status. I think we'd fall some way short of that mind you, and in all likelihood would make a mess of a lot of things but at least it would be our mess and mistakes to learn and recover from! Can get away from this blame England/London mentality which is used as readily as Falkirk fans blame refs for everything.

Plenty of opportunities are there that require a leap of faith to an extent - especially in energy markets (water supplies, coastline, oil, vast areas for windfarms). I'm not dead against keeping the UK but most arguments for remaining part of the Union seem to me to be built on the fear of the unknown. The logical thing to do would be to stay in the Union but for some reason I'm quite gung ho about this independence malarky.
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Re: wreckless eric....

Post by geeo41 » Thursday 01st 2012f March 2012 03:59:03 PM

Sir Jones wrote:
Rosco wrote:I wouldn't say i'm SNP but am pro independence.
My stance too, though wasn't always the case until recently.

Personally, I don't buy into the typical arguments made for and against independence though I'll read both with some interest. Financial projections and other statistics can be bent to back any argument but for me, I'd like to think the people of this country would do a reasonable job of running things. But then who really knows?

Historically speaking, collectively the people of Scotland have punched well above their weight over the years. There is an opportunuty to at least make headways to returning to that sort of status. I think we'd fall some way short of that mind you, and in all likelihood would make a mess of a lot of things but at least it would be our mess and mistakes to learn and recover from! Can get away from this blame England/London mentality which is used as readily as Falkirk fans blame refs for everything.

Plenty of opportunities are there that require a leap of faith to an extent - especially in energy markets (water supplies, coastline, oil, vast areas for windfarms). I'm not dead against keeping the UK but most arguments for remaining part of the Union seem to me to be built on the fear of the unknown. The logical thing to do would be to stay in the Union but for some reason I'm quite gung ho about this independence malarky.
I reckon that thought process resonates with many scots at the moment, its certainly how i feel at the moment, but apparently you are not allowed to change/or even consider other viewpoints in the democratic world we live in.......you will get both barrels for that one jonesy..... :lol:

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Re: wreckless eric....

Post by OffshoreBairn » Thursday 01st 2012f March 2012 04:00:04 PM

They think it's all over?

It Is Now
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Re: wreckless eric....

Post by OffshoreBairn » Thursday 01st 2012f March 2012 04:03:54 PM

Sir Jones wrote:
Rosco wrote:I wouldn't say i'm SNP but am pro independence.
My stance too, though wasn't always the case until recently.

Personally, I don't buy into the typical arguments made for and against independence though I'll read both with some interest. Financial projections and other statistics can be bent to back any argument but for me, I'd like to think the people of this country would do a reasonable job of running things. But then who really knows?

Historically speaking, collectively the people of Scotland have punched well above their weight over the years. There is an opportunuty to at least make headways to returning to that sort of status. I think we'd fall some way short of that mind you, and in all likelihood would make a mess of a lot of things but at least it would be our mess and mistakes to learn and recover from! Can get away from this blame England/London mentality which is used as readily as Falkirk fans blame refs for everything.

Plenty of opportunities are there that require a leap of faith to an extent - especially in energy markets (water supplies, coastline, oil, vast areas for windfarms). I'm not dead against keeping the UK but most arguments for remaining part of the Union seem to me to be built on the fear of the unknown. The logical thing to do would be to stay in the Union but for some reason I'm quite gung ho about this independence malarky.
There's nothing to stop the electorate returning a Labour/Conservative/Lib Dem/Green Government after Independence.
It doesn't have to be an SNP one.
That's what's called democracy, unlike what we've got just now.
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Re: wreckless eric....

Post by dixie chicken » Thursday 01st 2012f March 2012 04:21:57 PM

I agree with a lot of what Jones said to the extent that I don't think this is about money. Whether we're 10% better or worse off is irrelevant to me.
It is much more a matter of 'belonging'.
My wife's folks were English whereas my relatives came from N. Ireland/Scotland and to that extent we all 'felt' British. Which area was irrelevant. We were British but living in Falkirk.
On the practical politics of it I despair at the quality of Scottish politicians, especially those in Holyrood. It is embarrassing to watch.
The only decent Scottish politicos I can think of are Michael Forsyth, Malcolm Rifkind and Teddy Taylor. Salmond is smart but deluded and will be found out eventually. I'm sure there must be others but it's hard to recall.
As someone said, the SNP's energy policy is a joke and I fear that Scottish education and healthcare is rapidly falling behind that in England where exciting things are happening.
The Scots also seem to be very left wing ( as witnessed on this forum) which makes it difficult for people like me to co-exist.
On the plus side we don't have the same degree of unfetterred immigration but left to the SNP this will undoubtedly change.
A very complicated business but I can't see much merit in separation for very little reason.

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Re: wreckless eric....

Post by Gus2 » Thursday 01st 2012f March 2012 04:50:19 PM

dixie chicken wrote:I agree with a lot of what Jones said to the extent that I don't think this is about money. Whether we're 10% better or worse off is irrelevant to me.
It is much more a matter of 'belonging'.
My wife's folks were English whereas my relatives came from N. Ireland/Scotland and to that extent we all 'felt' British. Which area was irrelevant. We were British but living in Falkirk.
On the practical politics of it I despair at the quality of Scottish politicians, especially those in Holyrood. It is embarrassing to watch.
The only decent Scottish politicos I can think of are Michael Forsyth, Malcolm Rifkind and Teddy Taylor. Salmond is smart but deluded and will be found out eventually. I'm sure there must be others but it's hard to recall.
As someone said, the SNP's energy policy is a joke and I fear that Scottish education and healthcare is rapidly falling behind that in England where exciting things are happening.
The Scots also seem to be very left wing ( as witnessed on this forum) which makes it difficult for people like me to co-exist.
On the plus side we don't have the same degree of unfetterred immigration but left to the SNP this will undoubtedly change.
A very complicated business but I can't see much merit in separation for very little reason.
Showing your political bias there DC I have a lot of respect for Teddy Taylor but as for the other two both were complict in making the Tories a toxic brand in Scotland. As I have said before Scotland is a socially conservative nation.
a complex mix of socialist and socially aware conservative but Thatcher, Rifkind and Forsyth and Ian Lang all abandoned that type of conservative thinking for a more Americanised form of Capitalism which put self before society a greed = good policy which many Scots Conservatives could not stomach and they turned enmasse to the then Liberal party now that the Lib-Dems are also now following the same path taken by the Tories 30 years ago those same voters will increasingly see independance and the chance to rebuild a socially aware conservative party in Scotland as an attractive option. Ironically the end of the union in my view could see the rise of a new brand of socially acceptable and electable right wing politics in Scotland. It will also spell the end of this incarnation of the SNP whose members will in all likelyhood become the founders of many new political parties on both thr right and left of post- independance politics.
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Re: wreckless eric....

Post by dixie chicken » Thursday 01st 2012f March 2012 04:53:05 PM

Gus2 - some good points there.

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Re: wreckless eric....

Post by Rosco » Thursday 01st 2012f March 2012 05:22:12 PM

Gus2 wrote:
dixie chicken wrote:I agree with a lot of what Jones said to the extent that I don't think this is about money. Whether we're 10% better or worse off is irrelevant to me.
It is much more a matter of 'belonging'.
My wife's folks were English whereas my relatives came from N. Ireland/Scotland and to that extent we all 'felt' British. Which area was irrelevant. We were British but living in Falkirk.
On the practical politics of it I despair at the quality of Scottish politicians, especially those in Holyrood. It is embarrassing to watch.
The only decent Scottish politicos I can think of are Michael Forsyth, Malcolm Rifkind and Teddy Taylor. Salmond is smart but deluded and will be found out eventually. I'm sure there must be others but it's hard to recall.
As someone said, the SNP's energy policy is a joke and I fear that Scottish education and healthcare is rapidly falling behind that in England where exciting things are happening.
The Scots also seem to be very left wing ( as witnessed on this forum) which makes it difficult for people like me to co-exist.
On the plus side we don't have the same degree of unfetterred immigration but left to the SNP this will undoubtedly change.
A very complicated business but I can't see much merit in separation for very little reason.
Showing your political bias there DC I have a lot of respect for Teddy Taylor but as for the other two both were complict in making the Tories a toxic brand in Scotland. As I have said before Scotland is a socially conservative nation.
a complex mix of socialist and socially aware conservative but Thatcher, Rifkind and Forsyth and Ian Lang all abandoned that type of conservative thinking for a more Americanised form of Capitalism which put self before society a greed = good policy which many Scots Conservatives could not stomach and they turned enmasse to the then Liberal party now that the Lib-Dems are also now following the same path taken by the Tories 30 years ago those same voters will increasingly see independance and the chance to rebuild a socially aware conservative party in Scotland as an attractive option. Ironically the end of the union in my view could see the rise of a new brand of socially acceptable and electable right wing politics in Scotland. It will also spell the end of this incarnation of the SNP whose members will in all likelyhood become the founders of many new political parties on both thr right and left of post- independance politics.
Aye the pressures that normal countries have to cope with surrounding budgets would bring about a more mature approach to scottish political decision making. Scotland is a funny nation. We are obviously more socially communal in spirit but there is a canny business approach and conservative in values too. Maybe that's why we're more susceptible to principles like free higher education and a real NHS. Being a normal country would bring about a change.

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Re: wreckless eric....

Post by russelllatapylegend » Thursday 01st 2012f March 2012 05:25:13 PM

If Labour were smart, they would call a by-election immediately.


I think with a good candidate they might just about sneak the seat, although even going on the premise that Scottish Labour are penniless and the Scottish National Party would have the coppers of Brian Soutar and €millions winner Colin Kerr to throw dosh at taking the seat, I think a Nationalist gain in Falkirk would be quite insignificant for the Labour party.

Assuming the SNP use John McNally and Labour use Cathy Peattie, it's fairly obvious what would happen. The Western half of the constituency places like Denny, Banknock and Bonnybridge would vote McNally en masse, the Eastern half I think would show a Peattie plurality(Apparently she has a personal following and in fact had she stood down last year McDonald would have returned a huge majority). And McNally would end up winning the seat on a sizeable majority.

If the SNP don't use McNally then I think Peattie might win but if it's McNally against an unknown Labour candidate then he will hoover up the votes and surpass the 9% swing with double digits to spare.


But, look at Glasgow East. If Labour do the decent thing and wash their hands of Joyce now, then they will maintain a bit of respectability in the area and win the seat back with a safe working majority in 2015, however if we're stuck with Joyce - Labour or independent - until then, I think the SNP won't just be returning an MP in 2015, but will be calling Falkirk their safest seat south of the Tay.
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Re: wreckless eric....

Post by dixie chicken » Thursday 01st 2012f March 2012 05:40:30 PM

Peattie is completely useless!!!
Another example of a 2nd rate Scottish politician.

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Re: wreckless eric....

Post by Gus2 » Thursday 01st 2012f March 2012 05:42:03 PM

russelllatapylegend wrote:If Labour were smart, they would call a by-election immediately.


I think with a good candidate they might just about sneak the seat, although even going on the premise that Scottish Labour are penniless and the Scottish National Party would have the coppers of Brian Soutar and €millions winner Colin Kerr to throw dosh at taking the seat, I think a Nationalist gain in Falkirk would be quite insignificant for the Labour party.

Assuming the SNP use John McNally and Labour use Cathy Peattie, it's fairly obvious what would happen. The Western half of the constituency places like Denny, Banknock and Bonnybridge would vote McNally en masse, the Eastern half I think would show a Peattie plurality(Apparently she has a personal following and in fact had she stood down last year McDonald would have returned a huge majority). And McNally would end up winning the seat on a sizeable majority.

If the SNP don't use McNally then I think Peattie might win but if it's McNally against an unknown Labour candidate then he will hoover up the votes and surpass the 9% swing with double digits to spare.


But, look at Glasgow East. If Labour do the decent thing and wash their hands of Joyce now, then they will maintain a bit of respectability in the area and win the seat back with a safe working majority in 2015, however if we're stuck with Joyce - Labour or independent - until then, I think the SNP won't just be returning an MP in 2015, but will be calling Falkirk their safest seat south of the Tay.
Cathie Peattie's personal vote is Grangemouth based and was nullified at the Holyrood elections by Angus MacDonald's on considerable personal vote in Grangemouth putting that to one side Cathie Peattie would be a bad choice for Labour in a by-election as she resides in Grangemouth which is not yet part of the a combined Falkirk and District constitancy as has been proved more and more voters are voting for a local rather than a well known name.
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Re: wreckless eric....

Post by grahamston » Thursday 01st 2012f March 2012 05:54:11 PM

Dixie, re belonging, given that Scots of any political hue are able to call themselves both Scottish and British now, I see no reason why they couldn't do so if Scotland became independent. Identity is a state of mind, not link to whomever you pay tax to, or who issues your passports. You could still have English and Northern Irish relatives, or travel there just as easily after independence. It's just that decisions would be taken closer to home.
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Re: wreckless eric....

Post by OffshoreBairn » Thursday 01st 2012f March 2012 05:56:36 PM

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Re: wreckless eric....

Post by dixie chicken » Thursday 01st 2012f March 2012 05:57:23 PM

You always seem to omit, Grahamston, that the bulk of our laws come from Brussels.
Your paymasters, I presume!!

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Re: wreckless eric....

Post by grahamston » Thursday 01st 2012f March 2012 05:58:40 PM

http://www.scotsman.com/sport/football/ ... _1_2148172

Hang on, I take that back. Screw independence!! I'm voting Labour. No, wait a minute, Leishman's a red! Okay, Lib Dem...aaaargh Willie Rennie!

That only leaves...that only leaves....

TOMMY SHERIDAN!!!!
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Re: wreckless eric....

Post by grahamston » Thursday 01st 2012f March 2012 06:01:13 PM

Falsch, mon ami! My employer - for nearly the past quarter century - is a wonderful lady who has spent 60 years this year in the same position. And I serve her with pleasure.
dixie chicken wrote:You always seem to omit, Grahamston, that the bulk of our laws come from Brussels.
Your paymasters, I presume!!
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Re: wreckless eric....

Post by OffshoreBairn » Thursday 01st 2012f March 2012 06:02:15 PM

grahamston wrote:That only leaves...that only leaves....

TOMMY SHERIDAN!!!!
Minatures all round :clink: then?
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Re: wreckless eric....

Post by russelllatapylegend » Thursday 01st 2012f March 2012 06:03:21 PM

grahamston wrote:http://www.scotsman.com/sport/football/ ... _1_2148172

Hang on, I take that back. Screw independence!! I'm voting Labour. No, wait a minute, Leishman's a red! Okay, Lib Dem...aaaargh Willie Rennie!

That only leaves...that only leaves....

TOMMY SHERIDAN!!!!
Not communist enough :lol:
The day is dawning.

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Re: wreckless eric....

Post by russelllatapylegend » Thursday 01st 2012f March 2012 06:04:20 PM

grahamston wrote:Falsch, mon ami! My employer - for nearly the past quarter century - is a wonderful lady who has spent 60 years this year in the same position. And I serve her with pleasure.
dixie chicken wrote:You always seem to omit, Grahamston, that the bulk of our laws come from Brussels.
Your paymasters, I presume!!
Oh dear.


The monarchy is a total disgrace.
The day is dawning.

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