No more academy?

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kent brockman
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Re: No more academy?

Post by kent brockman » Saturday 27th 2018f January 2018 01:10:21 PM

Project Brave`s insistence on 5 full time members of academy staff made it virtually impossible for Championship clubs to achieve elite status.

As for our own Academy it produced a lot more income than it cost over the past 10 years.
Last edited by kent brockman on Sunday 28th 2018f January 2018 04:57:00 PM, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: No more academy?

Post by Ricey » Saturday 27th 2018f January 2018 11:24:32 PM

I think the number was £3 million income over 7 years. Looking at the accounts of forth valley academy Falkirk paid in anything between £100k to £140k per annum. We then had the cost of the under 20s on top which is rumoured to be £200k per annum.

Now as we know the u20s league finishes at the end of the season and Falkirk would have been getting rid of that team anyway to save the money the club spoke of. So this means we definitely won’t be replacing it with a reserve team as that’s more expensive again. This means there is no place for any player unless he is first team ready so I assume all the current u20s will be leaving including the two internationals Mitchell and Mcbride. This would be a mistake IMO.

On project brave there will be only 6-8 elite academies In Scotland. For years falkirk have only been about that level in the pecking order anyway. with youth football geography plays a massive part on who the players play for as its a massive commitment to parents travelling. So we still would have been getting pretty much the same players we always got.

Going forward Falkirk will be signing 23 year olds plus from down south. Hopefully it will be lots of Tommy Robsons. Players like Vaulks and Leahy won’t fit the bill as they weren’t immediate first team ready and we can’t sign players and develop them in the reserves. When you realise this you begin to really worry as if we have one really bad year of signings we could be in big trouble with nobody to sell to bail us out.

Margaret Lang has taken a huge risk with the future of our club

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Re: No more academy?

Post by rusty_nail » Saturday 27th 2018f January 2018 11:35:37 PM

Ricey wrote:
Saturday 27th 2018f January 2018 11:24:32 PM
I think the number was £3 million income over 7 years. Looking at the accounts of forth valley academy Falkirk paid in anything between £100k to £140k per annum. We then had the cost of the under 20s on top which is rumoured to be £200k per annum.

Now as we know the u20s league finishes at the end of the season and Falkirk would have been getting rid of that team anyway to save the money the club spoke of. So this means we definitely won’t be replacing it with a reserve team as that’s more expensive again. This means there is no place for any player unless he is first team ready so I assume all the current u20s will be leaving including the two internationals Mitchell and Mcbride. This would be a mistake IMO.

On project brave there will be only 6-8 elite academies In Scotland. For years falkirk have only been about that level in the pecking order anyway. with youth football geography plays a massive part on who the players play for as its a massive commitment to parents travelling. So we still would have been getting pretty much the same players we always got.

Going forward Falkirk will be signing 23 year olds plus from down south. Hopefully it will be lots of Tommy Robsons. Players like Vaulks and Leahy won’t fit the bill as they weren’t immediate first team ready and we can’t sign players and develop them in the reserves. When you realise this you begin to really worry as if we have one really bad year of signings we could be in big trouble with nobody to sell to bail us out.

Margaret Lang has taken a huge risk with the future of our club
I have to agree.

When you see the list of academy graduates and fees for a fraction of those that actually 'made' it outweighs the cost saving of scrapping it. Not every player will succeed but I'd far rather someone like Gallacher who came through reaped the rewards than a Taylor or Robson who sees us a stepping stone.

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Re: No more academy?

Post by Olaf Thom » Saturday 27th 2018f January 2018 11:45:26 PM

I would say the club took its eyes off the ball and focused on developing players for cash instead of getting us into the premier league.
Why can’t you develop players in a reserve league? What difference is that to the u20s except it be a tougher league? I don’t know anyone who gives a toss about either if the first team is winning.

Do companies pay for the higher education of their employees? Do they balls, why should we pay for the development of young players?

This isnt about money, it’s about focus, we need to be the Premier league, I’d be more than happy to have 11 foreigners in the team, if we had the same success as St Johnstone.
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Re: No more academy?

Post by Ricey » Saturday 27th 2018f January 2018 11:55:28 PM

We won’t be in an u20 or a reserve league going forward so it won’t matter. The reason we aren’t in the premier league was due to the teams in the league and the manager we had not the academy. You could argue the academy cut its own throat by keeping Houston in a job making up for his many poor signings.

Many companies do pay for the education of their employees with masters degrees etc I know mine does

On your last point Olaf I do agree I don’t care where players come from as long as we are successful but equally I dont want to be Airdrie in league one who not so long ago were a club not much smaller than us

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Re: No more academy?

Post by Olaf Thom » Sunday 28th 2018f January 2018 12:05:09 AM

Airdrie were 4 years out of Airdrie, that is what screwed them

I thought the U20 league was being scrapped for a reserve league, no age restrictions - with the aim to to raise standards.
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Re: No more academy?

Post by Ricey » Sunday 28th 2018f January 2018 12:15:41 AM

Yes the u20s is being scrapped for the reserve league. But given all the saving to the club is in not having an u20/reserve team we won’t be having a reserve team either. We could have kept the academy for zero cost but Lang knocked the option back as we would no longer have a pathway to the first team as no u20 or reserve team to further develop in. If we do have a reserve team then why knock back a free academy that was independently funded when the creamof the academy could have went there if good enough?

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Re: No more academy?

Post by Olaf Thom » Sunday 28th 2018f January 2018 12:45:13 AM

I dunno

I assumed we'd have a first team squad of 18,
7- 10 young guys pushing for the first team and playing in reserve games with those that didn't make the 1st XI
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Re: No more academy?

Post by Brian Scrimegour » Sunday 28th 2018f January 2018 02:17:53 PM

The bod are using the academy as an excuse for us still being in this league when its the same academy that has kept us going while they blundered through one ludicrous decision after another. It's the bod that are the main reason we are down here and nothing else. Crazy that we are binning an academy which costs very little to run when you include the cash raised by AT and yet makes us regular and considerable cash. The fact that even when the money has been offered by others our two chief clowns still won't accept that they are wrong and reverse the decision is just laughable. I get the feeling that Margaret lang is going to have us all wishing that our old brexit bullshitter was back in the chair.

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Re: No more academy?

Post by Sir Jones » Sunday 28th 2018f January 2018 03:54:30 PM

Lang is making a call based on the mess she has inherited.

We spent years f*cking about after relegation. Years that have ultimately proven to be a waste of time and a bit of a money pit.

In terms of player sales, the academy was clearly easily paying for itself so why chuck the towel in? My gut feel is that we are considerably more in the sh1tter financially than any of us realises and we needed to cut costs asap if we are to have any hope of promotion in the short/medium term.

Perhaps there was no genuine big hopes in the pipeline. Tony G "only" attracted £200k (add ons aside) - if we didn't have anyone in that talent bracket coming through in next 3-5 years then may as well close shop and redirect the c£200k of running costs towards plugging gaps and a refocussed first team.

I've seen figures from a few seasons ago (11/12 season) where our first team budget was c£600k for the year. Only a little over two thirds of that is for the players salaries. That feels borderline shoe string back then - can only imagine what it's like now.

Looking at these figures again, it is unreal how much the non playing side was (still is?) costing the club vs the playing side of things.

I don't have much of a beef with Lang. She's been left with one hell of a sh1t heap to deal with.
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Re: No more academy?

Post by Duncan Freemason » Sunday 28th 2018f January 2018 04:11:59 PM

I will go back to the franchise in Livingston. Now clearly, they are not a financial model anyone should seek to follow. Even now, despite the protestations of their miserably small support, not for one minute do I believe that they are even trying to balance the books.
They ran up yet another £1.5 million of debt post their last bout of administration, but claim that it is all in the process of being written off in a stock issue.....except that isn’t what has happened. No matter.
The point is, they are running a 24 player first team squad plus youths plus coaching and management staff on a crowd of.........well, let’s put it this way, yesterday they had 732 for their match with Dumbarton.......less than Alloa, less than Airdrie. Yet we seem to be in the financial mire with five times the support.
Either we spend badly, or they are just rattling up the debt yet again, or we have horrendous overheads that they don’t...even though they own not a single brick of the stadium they rent.

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Re: No more academy?

Post by AL_bairn » Sunday 28th 2018f January 2018 05:04:37 PM

Does anyone know if there was any talent coming through? I don't know much about the academy but I get the feeling the good players coming through has fizzled out a bit and that has maybe made them pull the plug.

I'm glad we have someone in charge of the club that seems to be making the first team the priority. I remember someone saying we had 50 odd players on the books. That's just crazy for a club our size playing in the 2nd tier of Scottish football.

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Re: No more academy?

Post by Brian Scrimegour » Sunday 28th 2018f January 2018 06:01:06 PM

Yes there was indeed talent coming through which will now be the future of other clubs in Scotland. One of our younger age group sides was the best in the country at that age and we had real good prospects like james maxwell who has now moved on elsewhere. The academy only cost us 50k a year and yet it brought in an average of 200k a year. How Lang and her sidekick can decide that binning it is a sensible idea that will see us on a non stop route to the promised land is beyond me especially when others had agreed to cover all the costs for the next few years. It's now obvious why she hid her head in the sand to questions asked re the academy at the agm only to announce its closure a few weeks later. The way they then leaked this to the press before telling the families involved was an utter disgrace. Lang is just another in a long line of idiot chairman and the CEO makes George Craig look competent. Time to bin the pair of them.

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Re: No more academy?

Post by Sir Jones » Sunday 28th 2018f January 2018 07:07:50 PM

Brian Scrimegour wrote:
Sunday 28th 2018f January 2018 06:01:06 PM
The academy only cost us 50k a year and yet it brought in an average of 200k a year.
Mind me asking your source on that? And, if accurate, any idea how we slashed costs from £200kpa in 2012 down to £50k? My figures include "facility hire" for Stirling so there's one saving I suppose.
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Re: No more academy?

Post by dixie chicken » Sunday 28th 2018f January 2018 07:22:19 PM

An awful lot of completely different figures being put out here.
Would appreciate if someone with knowledge could lay out the costs.
KB is probably the most informed.

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Re: No more academy?

Post by Falkirkbairn90 » Sunday 28th 2018f January 2018 07:52:40 PM

Sir Jones wrote:
Sunday 28th 2018f January 2018 07:07:50 PM
Brian Scrimegour wrote:
Sunday 28th 2018f January 2018 06:01:06 PM
The academy only cost us 50k a year and yet it brought in an average of 200k a year.
Mind me asking your source on that? And, if accurate, any idea how we slashed costs from £200kpa in 2012 down to £50k? My figures include "facility hire" for Stirling so there's one saving I suppose.
Yeah I’d second that, where are you plucking £50k from? I doubt that covers Michael McArdle and Jamie Swinney’s wages. When Foxy was in charge of the Foundation he was on £35k a year. Do you think the head of our academy would be on less than that plus Swinney? That alone costs more than £50k. Plus all the coaches that took all the teams and the cost of facilities. I wouldn’t pretend to know how much it costs but can say with some confidence that £50k is a lot of pish!

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Re: No more academy?

Post by Brian Scrimegour » Sunday 28th 2018f January 2018 08:45:07 PM

The academy costs were 100-130k out of the 350k savings with the rest being the u20s side. Alex Tottens dinner raised circa 50k every year which went towards paying this amount so your taking 50-80k that the club itself used to fund it annually. Pretty small amount considering were bringing in 200k on average. The whole thing smells of rubbish if u ask me.

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Re: No more academy?

Post by Ricey » Monday 29th 2018f January 2018 01:38:25 AM

Remember folks whilst we were the only club contributing we weren’t the only contributor. Sfa put in more cash than we did. As for nobody coming through that’s a nonsense. Many players have already been snapped up and James maxwell who had played twice for the 20s is currently on trial at Brighton with several solid full time offers on the table from rangers etc.

Something just doesn’t add up on this as there was more money around the corner. I know speaking to head of youths at other clubs they all think Falkirk have paid for having 2 people in charge who have no clue about football in Lang and Campbell in fact some other clubs can’t believe their luck picking up a lot of decent players

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Re: No more academy?

Post by Creative Redemption » Monday 29th 2018f January 2018 05:40:46 PM

My point of view is get us back in to the SPL, then look to get a Youth Facility back in place.
Hartley is concentrating 100% on 1st team squads to get us back up, probably not this season, but hopefully next season if the momentum continues.
If it looks like we are heading back up, start putting the buildibg blokcs back in place for the Academy.
Yes, it might be starting a fresh and puts us years behind, but we NEED to get the income from the SPL. Living our life in the Championship is draining our club of any ambition, and with that, the youth set up.
Im not sure I agree with what they done, but if by season May 2019 we are heading back up to the SPL, well, its job done in my opinion.
Im fed up with sentiment, as its got us nowhere for the last 8 seasons.
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Re: No more academy?

Post by rusty_nail » Monday 29th 2018f January 2018 06:55:36 PM

Creative Redemption wrote:
Monday 29th 2018f January 2018 05:40:46 PM
My point of view is get us back in to the SPL, then look to get a Youth Facility back in place.
Hartley is concentrating 100% on 1st team squads to get us back up, probably not this season, but hopefully next season if the momentum continues.
If it looks like we are heading back up, start putting the buildibg blokcs back in place for the Academy.
Yes, it might be starting a fresh and puts us years behind, but we NEED to get the income from the SPL. Living our life in the Championship is draining our club of any ambition, and with that, the youth set up.
Im not sure I agree with what they done, but if by season May 2019 we are heading back up to the SPL, well, its job done in my opinion.
Im fed up with sentiment, as its got us nowhere for the last 8 seasons.
The great unknown is obviously whether this strategy will work.

My issue is that if it doesn’t and successive managers either keep churning players or are unreceptive as Houston was accused of being in scouting the wider market we’ll be no better off.

You just have to look at the players who left before even making a name with Falkirk to justify its worth in my opinion.
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